I support IRV as a substantial improvement over plurality-takes-all; but IRV is not "perfect" or even the best we could hope for. Here are a few reasons why:
1) IRV does NOT guarantee a majority winner. I don't know why people continually say it does-- it clearly doesn't. Imagine a three-way race like the following, after one round of voting:
Liberal: 10 votes
Moderate Conservative: 9 votes
Radical Conservative: 5 votes
Under IRV, the Radical Conservative is eliminated. Now suppose that 2 of the Radicals chose the Moderate-Conservative as their second choice, but 3 didn't specify a second-choice. That would give the Moderate 11 votes, beating the Liberal, but NOT a majority (11/24 isn't more than 50%). This is NOT at all implausible, and in fact, would be quite likely in a 9-way primary race, particularly with IRV proposals that only allow voters to specify 3 choices.
2) Some proposals of IRV do not allow full expression of voter preference, and thus, encourage "lesser of evil" voting and "spoilers." In Michigan, there is a movement for an "IRV; 1,2,3" voting system under which voters could specify their top 3 choices. I think back to the Democratic primary-- my top three choices were Kucinich, Moseley-Braun, and Sharpton. If I voted for those 3, there is a very good chance that my vote would in fact be "wasted." To stop this from happening, I would have compromised my vote to 1) Kucinich, 2) Mosely-Braun, 3) Dean. Compromising votes is what's wrong with our current system, we shouldn't repeat it in IRV.
3) It doesn't really address the spoiler problem as well as it could. Imagine I really liked Nader, but most Kerry supporters preferred Bush to Nader. Imagine enough people like me ranked Nader ahead of Kerry to make it a 2-way race between Nader-Bush. Now imagine that enough Kerry backers supported Bush over Nader to give Bush the win. If defeating Bush were really my top priority, and I had the foresight to see this might happen, then I just might rank Kerry ahead of Nader afterall, in order to prevent a Bush victory-- which is exactly what people are doing under the current system.
These are 3 serious flaws with IRV. A superior form of ranked-choice voting is known as Condorcet Voting, but the vote counting process is an algorhythm that would require computers, and we all know how dangerous electronic voting can be.
There is a simpler solution than Condorcet that is much better than IRV. It is so simple, in fact, that many people dismiss it without giving it proper consideration. It is called "Approval Voting," by which people can simply vote for as many candidates for a given office as they approve of. There are no promises of a majority winner, but these promises under IRV are false, anyway. What AV does guarantee, though, is that people will never ever be afraid to vote for the candidates they actually prefer, while they may indeed choose to vote for the "lesser of two evils" as well. Instituting AV would be much easier, and would show an instant appreciation in third-party support. Third parties doing well in the polls would cause people to do more research on varying viewpoints, thus saving the world from inevitable destruction.
1) IRV does NOT guarantee a majority winner. I don't know why people continually say it does-- it clearly doesn't. Imagine a three-way race like the following, after one round of voting:
Liberal: 10 votes
Moderate Conservative: 9 votes
Radical Conservative: 5 votes
Under IRV, the Radical Conservative is eliminated. Now suppose that 2 of the Radicals chose the Moderate-Conservative as their second choice, but 3 didn't specify a second-choice. That would give the Moderate 11 votes, beating the Liberal, but NOT a majority (11/24 isn't more than 50%). This is NOT at all implausible, and in fact, would be quite likely in a 9-way primary race, particularly with IRV proposals that only allow voters to specify 3 choices.
2) Some proposals of IRV do not allow full expression of voter preference, and thus, encourage "lesser of evil" voting and "spoilers." In Michigan, there is a movement for an "IRV; 1,2,3" voting system under which voters could specify their top 3 choices. I think back to the Democratic primary-- my top three choices were Kucinich, Moseley-Braun, and Sharpton. If I voted for those 3, there is a very good chance that my vote would in fact be "wasted." To stop this from happening, I would have compromised my vote to 1) Kucinich, 2) Mosely-Braun, 3) Dean. Compromising votes is what's wrong with our current system, we shouldn't repeat it in IRV.
3) It doesn't really address the spoiler problem as well as it could. Imagine I really liked Nader, but most Kerry supporters preferred Bush to Nader. Imagine enough people like me ranked Nader ahead of Kerry to make it a 2-way race between Nader-Bush. Now imagine that enough Kerry backers supported Bush over Nader to give Bush the win. If defeating Bush were really my top priority, and I had the foresight to see this might happen, then I just might rank Kerry ahead of Nader afterall, in order to prevent a Bush victory-- which is exactly what people are doing under the current system.
These are 3 serious flaws with IRV. A superior form of ranked-choice voting is known as Condorcet Voting, but the vote counting process is an algorhythm that would require computers, and we all know how dangerous electronic voting can be.
There is a simpler solution than Condorcet that is much better than IRV. It is so simple, in fact, that many people dismiss it without giving it proper consideration. It is called "Approval Voting," by which people can simply vote for as many candidates for a given office as they approve of. There are no promises of a majority winner, but these promises under IRV are false, anyway. What AV does guarantee, though, is that people will never ever be afraid to vote for the candidates they actually prefer, while they may indeed choose to vote for the "lesser of two evils" as well. Instituting AV would be much easier, and would show an instant appreciation in third-party support. Third parties doing well in the polls would cause people to do more research on varying viewpoints, thus saving the world from inevitable destruction.
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Unsu...
Re: Problems with IRV
Sat, October 16, 2004 - 5:27 PM1) IRV guarantees a majority winner out of people who VOTE for a runoff candidate. In your example, it would be the equivalent of having a run-off election, with 3 people who voted the in the first election choosing not to vote in it. It's up to each person whether he or she want's to participate. Right now, like half the population chooses not to vote. But we don't count them when we say "a majority of people voted/didn't vote for" someone or something. because we are talking about the people who actually vote. To opt out of choosing second, third, etc. choices is to say that you don't care who wins if your first choice doesn't win.
2) The only true version that allows full voter choice is one that allows someone to rank ALL the candidates, not just 3. A 3-choice system is definitely better than a no-runoff system, but a system that allows complete ranking should be the ultimate goal.
3) Ideally you shouldn't be basing what you vote for on what other people say they are voting for. This is "submissive voting" and is the reason why the current system sucks; because "submissive voting" is openly encouraged. The "spoiler" issue is really a mass psychological issue, and not a real problem. There will always be superstitious people and people who vote for reasons other than to choose a candidate who they believe represents them the most. But a full-choice IRV election will make scapegoating with cries of "spoiler" obsolete and will embolden people to vote their conscience.
Approval Voting sounds like a good idea for maybe some sort of nomination scheme to me... but it doesn't allow people to express preference... under IRV, i would definitely choose Nader as my top pick, as i greatly prefer him out of all the others... and there are a few others i could rank according to my feelings... but say I only like Kerry a smidgeon more than Bush, only enough that if the runoffs eliminated all others, THEN and ONLY then would I choose Kerry... Under Approval Voting, I could only give Kerry the same weight as I give Nader, whom I like a hundred times as much as Kerry.
Crazy brainstorm:
Perhaps another alternative could be some sort of "fractional" (?) voting, where each voter can rank their candidates of choice, not only by order, but also by *level* of preference.
I dunno, it just popped into my head. There are so many preferences a person could have. Like "MY CANDIDATE, OR NO ONE!!!" is a different preference than "MY CANDIDATE, and well if he doesn't win then I don't care who wins"... but what kind of system could address such a variety of preferences? -
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Re: Problems with IRV
Sat, October 16, 2004 - 8:31 PMApproval Voting seems interesting, and perhaps better than the system that most of the contry has.
First of all, I find that the argument that it is liberal vs. middle, vs. conservative is very over simplified. It assumes that politices is more linear that it really is.
People may want to vote for a candidtate, because of specific goals, or there affiliation.
It also doesn't seem to really deal with spoiler, at least not better than IRV.
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Re: Problems with IRV
Sun, October 17, 2004 - 1:28 PMIt doesn't matter, liberal/ conservative, or goals or whatever.. That was just an example.
There absolutely cannot be a spoiler in AV. People can vote for whoever they want; no spoiler. Under IRV there can be a spoiler, and there often are spoilers in AUstralia under IRV (so says electionmethods.org)
peace
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Re: Problems with IRV
Sun, October 17, 2004 - 1:27 PMVery respectfully
1) IRV does not guarantee a majority anymore than our current system guarantees a majority. It does increase the likelihood, as does voting for the lesser of two evils under our current system. Neither guarantees.
2) I agree, but many IRV proposals I have seen allow only for a top 3 choice.
3) Ideally, people should vote their conscience-- but that isn't the case under our current system, and it wouldn't be the case under IRV. Only Condorcet or Approval Voting could guarantee that.
While AV does not allow specification of preference, it does not have the "spoiler" problem of IRV. Condorcet is the best method, but it is too complicated to tally the results, esepcailly on a nationwide basis.
IRV has serious problems. They use IRV in Australia, and minor parties are still considered spoilers there, or so says electionmethods.org -
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Unsu...
Re: Problems with IRV
Sat, October 30, 2004 - 8:46 AM1) Neither guarantee anything but IRV makes it much more likely for a majority rather than a plurality. Voting for the lesser of two evils should NOT be an accepted model for proper democracy.
2) I definitely agree that a top-3 choice is severely limiting and that in any IRV legislation, FULL choice should be allowed.
3) Like I said, no matter what, there will always be people who will vote for their own peculiar reasons rather than to choose who represents them the most closely. No system can really force everyone to vote their conscience. This subject can be discussed at great length, and probably should be (in another thread) because it's important that we try and find solutions to this.... I think the #1 problem is the use of polls to manipulate people's opinons; along with the media's overall campaign coverage, which relies on polls as its backbone.
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Re: Problems with IRV
Wed, October 20, 2004 - 6:31 PM"If defeating Bush were really my top priority,"
herein lies the problem with your argument. I've never heard someone say that IRV would solve all of the problems but rather that it would encourage people to vote pragamtically not practically. Voting to defeat someone is counter to the way the system is designed. So yes, it would be possible that an IRV vote would mean your first choice candidate never got knocked out until the final matchup and so your second place candidate was already out and your vote for them never mattered. However the purpose isn't to prevent the person you like least from winning it is to give the best chance possible to the person you like the *most* not the person you like third or fourth most. If you want one of them to win vote for them.
That said I will agree that approval voting is a powerful idea due to sheer simplicity. No number crunching or what if scenerios, just a plain vote for as many as you would like. The best would be to combine this with a true run off to ensure a majority winner. In the first round you vote for all that you approve of and if no one walks away with approval from the majority of voters the first time around the second is some sort of run off by the top two. -
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Re: Problems with IRV
Sun, October 24, 2004 - 4:50 AMVosh: Hmm.. I disagree with the first thing you said-- most people who endorse IRV that I know say it would be a cure-all, that people would no longer be motivated to vote AGAINST something rather than FOR something. I'm simply saying that that isn't true.
We AGREE that that isn't true. I'm simply saying that most people, no, ALL people I know who are infatuated with IRV seem to see it differently than us. -
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Re: Problems with IRV
Sat, October 30, 2004 - 10:42 AMive never met anyone who thinks IRV is a perfect system. ever. if you need a 'system' in the first place, isnt that an open admission that flaws of some kind are present in society at large? IRV is not a cure-all, but it will cure all of the glaring problems that the 2004 election is presenting us with. it is a step up to a better, more evolved democracy than what we have now, and i havent met anyone who disagrees with that, either.
Instant Runoff doesnt actually present any 'problems', contrary to what the title of this thread suggests. even in its less effective forms, like top 3, it still only offers an improvement in proportionality of representation.
i think focusing on its shortcomings is counterproductive. we have to do something. what if the suffrage movements of the last century had not even bothered, since they would still be subject to plurality upon winning the vote? -
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Re: Problems with IRV
Sun, October 31, 2004 - 6:24 AMThere are superior systems that present fewer problems.
To deny that is to deny reality.
www.electionmethods.org
Read about Condorcet and Approval Voting. -
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Re: Problems with IRV
Mon, November 1, 2004 - 9:35 AMApproval voting is really simple to understand and implement.
You may refer to the eralier posting "None, some or all of the above" in this tribe for more information on the adoption of the method of approval voting.
Approval voting has one important added advantage. It allows voters to register their preferences for specific ideas by voting for multiple candidates (presumabley with some ideological similarities).
The current plurality vote ends up being a vote for an individual. In this system, extrapolating the ideas that the electorate favour is an exercise in speculation and guessing.
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Solution to the "Problems with IRV"
Mon, November 8, 2004 - 11:46 PMIn my reading it appears Ranked Pairs, a type of Condorcet voting, is considered by voting experts to be superior to IRV and Approval.
A few more links of interest are:
www.umich.edu/~cses/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_paradox
accuratedemocracy.com/c_anti.htm
condorcet.org/rp/index.shtml
www.fairvote.org
Generally we would be well served by moving to any of these systems because Plurality perpetuates two-party rule. Most other democracies know that (worldpolicy.org/globalrigh...e-pr.html).
I find "Ranked Choice" is a name that works well to capture the essence of the principle at work, AND allows flexibility as to which specific system is implemented in each municipality. We'd be well served if we could all start using the same term.
Peace,
Adam -
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Re: Solution to the "Problems with IRV"
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 2:09 PMThe New American Independent Party presently has 10 candidates and is planning on using IRV for our nomination process. I am open to hearing the opinion of this group on this. Is this the best method for us to use? or is their another method that would best fit this situtation. If we go with IRV, how many chooses to we allow our members to pick - 3?, 5? 8? or all 10?
This process must be low-budget and we will likely use paper ballots.
I would be interested in your feedback. I am certainly no election expert.
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